Public Talk about the interviews and conclusions made of the Earhart on Saipan research

Here in its unadulterated form (meaning there's an hour and change of footage) is the talk we gave at the American Pavilion on Saipan, sponsored by the NMI Humanities Council.


Apologies for any sound or picture issues, we just had the one camera set up for the shoot.  Paul Cooper on the left, Rich Martini in the middle, and Mike Harris on the right.  Enjoy!

More interviews, some radio time, gathering footage continues

Hello readers of the Earhart on Saipan blog!

We did an interview with Catherine Rosario Perry today, on Saipan's 99.5 FM "Your Humanities Half Hour."  Rich Martini handled the history and journey of ARA, and how we came to be on the island, and why we felt it was worth pursuing the eyewitness reports that Amelia and Fred Noonan were seen many times by many people on the island.

We'll post a link as soon as it becomes available.

Catherine R Perry in action
"Your Humanities Half Hour" on 99.5

Rich discussed how he and Mike Harris had followed roughly the same path back in the 80's with regard to finding eyewitnesses who could tell their story about Saipan.  Mike filmed a number of interviews back then, and Rich pursued the Earhart story as a feature film.  When he wound up working on "Amelia" he decided to focus his efforts on the documentary version of the story, and included a number of interviews he had done with US Marines who claimed to find the Electra during WWII parked on Aslito airfield.

Rich with witness Delores Takamane across from the old jail

As Rich pointed out, he wasn't pursuing the "why" she wound up on Saipan, or even the "how" she wound up there.  He just zeroed in on eyewitness reports to see if they could be corroborated, either by other eyewitnesses, or people who could vouch for their witness' veracity.  And he said that he's found 17 new eyewitnesses that have never been recorded before on Saipan who claim they saw Amelia and Fred Noonan there after she disappeared.

Paul Cooper and Mike Harris speaking about the search
Will post the video of this talk in a few days

We're continuing our interviews with people, but back stateside.  As reported recently, Paul Cooper met a fellow who said he knew a gentleman in Texas who claimed he's a retired CIA employee, and that he witnessed the destruction of the airplane on Aslito field.  We're seeking an interview with him, who would be our seventh Marine to claim to seeing the Electra there (not including the ones who spoke to Tom Devine and Mike Campbell in their book).  This will be the 7th Marine that we have on camera telling his story.

Newsman Fred Goerner wrote "Searching for Earhart"
and visited Saipan three times in his research

Fred interviewed this woman in 1960.. but
no one bothered to put her on film. We will.

We are also speaking with the very first eyewitness to come forward, a Saipan native who lives in the US.  This woman has never been put on camera before, and so we felt it important to do so, and let her tell her story herself.

As with much reporting about Amelia Earhart and this saga - it all depends on the author's point of view, or preconceived idea, or conclusions about what really happened.  However, by way of a documentary, the audience is allowed to think for themselves, to hear the testimony themselves, and to make up their own minds whether they consider it to be false, manipulated, or too coincidental to be anything but true.  That's why the amount of eyewitnesses keeps growing.

This author, Oliver Knaggs, interviewed a number of people on camera for his book

We've also been able to track down the footage taken during a trip to Mili in the 1980's which will hopefully show those native islanders recounting their own stories about what did or didn't happen.  They claim they saw the Electra land there on the atoll in 1937, and the female and male who emerged from the plane were arrested by the Japanese and the plane was taken away by a Japanese barge.  We have testimony about where the plane went next, by other eyewitnesses.  And eventually those eyewitnesses all agree on the point that this female pilot and the man traveling with her, were taken to Saipan and incarcerated for being spies.

Hard to find book, however, Knaggs interviews some of
the same people who Mike Harris interviewed in 1983

Whether they were spies or not is subject to conjecture.  We know they were arrested as spies, because eyewitnesses were told by Japanese soldiers not to tell anyone what they'd see, or about the "American spies" upon fear of death.  We know that a Navy mechanic claimed to install Fairchild "Aerial Surveillance cameras (spy cameras) into her plane in Burbank.  We know that if she had been caught by the Japanese spying on them it would have been considered an act of war - as in 1937, when a spy was caught, it was considered an act of war.

But again, we aren't focusing on the why.  Just the what. As in "What happened?"

Lest we forget who we're talking about. American hero. Never thanked for her sacrifice to country.

Stay tuned...

CNMI Culture Center/Earhart Exhibit moves forward, along with more eyewitnesses, "In Veritas Libertas"

Captain Cooper met with the new Governor Eloy Inos and Lt. Governor Jude Hofschneider regarding the CNMI Cultural Center/Earhart Exhibit, moving the ball forward.

Lt. Gov Hofschneider, ARA's Paul Cooper & Gov Eloy Inos.
Photo by Robert Rustin

We'd like to thank the Governor for meeting with us, and helping steer us in the right direction!

Meanwhile, new eyewitnesses have come forward.

Estella Cabrera holding a picture of her family.
photo by Chris Neltner

We got a call from Estella Cabrera, with an amazing story of her own involvement with the Earhart on Saipan story.  She brought along some photographs of her family, and told us her story on camera for the first time.  We are in the process of speaking with corroborating witnesses who have a similar or nearly the same story.  But we can't thank her enough for coming forward to help us.

Captain Cooper with the Cabrera family. Photo Chris Neltner

Then we spoke with Mr. V Santos.  Mr. Santos saw that we mentioned the testimony of Jack Salas, 82, who says that when he was 12, he was sitting with his brother and saw Amelia on the back of a Japanese truck.  There were two other prisoners on that truck - both wearing khaki pants, but shirtless.  Mr. Salas saw the "blond" woman with her arms tied behind her back and was startled to see his first caucasion person every - who happened to be a woman in khaki pants and shirts.

Mr. Santos contacted us to let us know he was also there in Chalan Kanoa and also saw Amelia on the back of the truck with two shirtless prisoners. (We did not publish the part of the two other prisoners on the website - and when he claimed he saw her with two other prisoners, that confirms beyond a shadow of a doubt that he saw the same event ON THE SAME DAY in May of 1944.)

David M Sablan, Vincente Santos and Paul Cooper. Photo by Robert Rustin

Mr. Santos, former teacher, a well respected member of the community, had a prominent role as member
of the negotiating team that negotiated the political status of the CNMI

Mr. Santos read about the eyewitness from Chalan Kanoa, and because he also witnessed the same event, felt compelled to tell us about it.  Mr. Santos told us about the day when he came down from his family ranch into Chalan Kanoa (housing area where the executives of the sugar mill lived) to sell papaya to the Japanese/Okiinawans living there.  On that date he "saw two or three Europeans on the back of the truck blind-folded and hand-cuffed with two Japanese military guards standing at the back of the victims."  Mr. Santos followed the truck part of the way as it was being driven slowly as if they were showing off the "captives" to the residents of Chalan Kanoa and finally ended up in the school campus.

Lotan Jack's story as told to Mike Harris in 1983

The "three Europeans" were Amelia Earhart, and two American pilots who had been shot down recently just prior to the invasion in June of 1944.  These two pilots must have been pretty startled to see Amelia as a prisoner traveling with them.

Either way, it confirms Jack Salas' story.  Thank you very much Mr. Santos!!!

Manny Muna from Mike Harris' documentary

The story continues....

Oscar DeBrum from Mike Harris' 1983 footage

And like most of the unusual events we've experienced on Saipan, a gentleman in a local establishment struck up a conversation with a member of our team recently.  He recalled a story told to him by a veteran of Saipan told him back in the States, which corroborates what other US Marines have told us; that Earhart's Electra was found on Saipan by US Marines and destroyed there. We're finding out whether this veteran will tell us his story on camera.  Fingers crossed, as he would add yet another voice to the chorus of those who saw or heard about Earhart's plane being found and destroyed on Saipan.

Godfather's Bar & Grill - where most everyone on Saipan winds up
at some point in the evening.  And a good source of intel!

There's an old Latin saying that we at Aircraft Recovery Associates take to heart: In Veritas; Libertas. 

It's the same phrase that is emblazoned on the wall of the entrance to the CIA: "The Truth Will Set You Free."  We feel that this search for the truth on Saipan, while difficult and taxing, will be ultimately rewarding for everyone involved.  People from across the globe who've never been to Saipan will go there to see these same sights, to experience the same things so many experienced in one of the hardest fought battles in World War II.  The thousands of tourists who come every day from Japan, China, Korea and Russia will get a chance to hear the history of Saipan from a fresh perspective. They will also get to experience a part of the US they weren't aware of - despite being so far from our shores, it's just like Hawaii - the temperature remains around 82 year round, golf courses abound... Something tourists from Asia experience daily.

Aslito airfield from Jerry Facey's balcony. Thanks Jerry!

We are thankful for all the help the Saipanese people have given us in our quest. 

Everyone we interviewed, we told the same thing; we were looking for two things.  One is the location of the plane, which we would not take from the island if indeed we found it; the Electra belongs to the history and story of Saipan.  Whatever we find on Saipan will stay on Saipan (unless borrowed for a traveling exhibition of course).  But more importantly, we wanted to hear their stories of what it was like on Saipan prior to the war firsthand, what the experience was like for the families who survived the war, and finally, whether or not they'd ever met or heard anyone claiming that Amelia Earhart was on the island.

Saipan site of the wreck of Magellan's Concepcion -
another buried treasure but they left a chest of gold!

What we found is that by asking the Chomorro people to tell us their stories, they were able to reconnect with the emotions and feelings from that era.  Sometimes it would be to wipe away a tear for the horrors that they witnessed, for the loss of the loved ones.  Sometimes it would be honor their mother and father and to repeat the stories they'd heard as children about the difficulties they experienced.  These stories are unique to Saipan and belong to history, and as such should become part of the CNMI (Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas) cultural center.  These stories are living history and should be preserved as such as much as the story of Earhart's journey to Saipan, her and Fred Noonan's incarceration there, their deaths, and the discovery and destruction of the Electra.  These events have never been explored in depth, and deserve to be.

Mike Harris and Rich Martini at the old church -
site where Marine Robert Wallack found Earhart's briefcase

These are new stories about Amelia Earhart, stories that have never been published before, stories that are corroborated by other details, are part of history.  In the case of one piece of testimony, an avowed skeptic when we first arrived learned from testimony that there was a distant relative who claimed to have seen both Earhart and her Electra on Saipan. This person had to reconsider their earlier skepticism, as the relative was beyond reproach.

Photographer Robert Rustin. Thank you Robert!

This gentleman's mother was a nurse in Saipan's hospital prior to the War -
She told her son the story of a woman pilot and her navigator who were
brought into the hospital in 1937

The hunt continues.  We are continuing the search, and compiling the results.  We will be presenting them as soon as we can.

New eyewitness testimony suggests Amelia Earhart
spent up to 7 years incarcerated here before being executed
perhaps weeks or even days prior to the American invasion. 

In the meantime, thanks to all the people of Saipan who went out of their ways to make us feel at home, to work tirelessly on our behalf, to encourage us to keep us the hard but rewarding work of finding the truth of this story.

Another day comes to a close...

Stay tuned...

Digging continues....

Digging on Aslito airfield has commenced.

Captain Cooper overseeing a dig sight - Photo Robert Rustin

We're not digging up the whole field mind you, and of course we have a limited area with which we can work.  But finally, after 8 weeks, the permits have come in.  Kudos to Captain Paul Cooper who has kept after it, and those who helped them get the permits - and special thanks to the HPO and the archaeologists involved - Marilyn and Mike - who are on hand to make sure that every proper protocol is kept.

Aslito airfield - Photo Google Earth

So again, we have two avenues that we are pursuing at the moment.  One is interviews with people who claim they personally saw, or have information regarding someone who saw Amelia Earhart or Fred Noonan on Saipan.  To date we have 17 eyewitness reports, and most of them are new - have never been recorded or published before.  The process we took in our interviews was fairly simple; please tell us your memories (or your mother or father's memories as best as you can recall) about what Saipan was like before the war, and then what it was like during the war.

Aslito in June of 1944. Not far from one of our sights looking North West

The War began for Saipan on June 10th, 1944, because that's when US forces came to the island.  It was a fierce battle for Saipan, and for all the US veterans who survived it, any one of them can tell you how difficult that battle was.  It was the same for the Chomorro, the native people who were living on Saipan.  They had become part of Japan in the earlier part of the century, and there was a robust economy built on sugar cane. The Japanese ran the government offices, but by all accounts, there was little strife, and virtually no problem with their administration until the war with the United States began.

David M Sablan, Mike Harris, Paul Cooper not far from where
David's family hid in caves during the invasion

Then, as the reports go, the Japanese rules became stricter - and according to one historian, once soldiers who were battle hardened in Manchuria (fighting in China) arrived in Saipan, the Japanese soldiers became brutal, and treated the islanders as slaves.  However, there were many families that spoke Japanese fluently, and these people kept their jobs and kept their lives as long as they conformed to the newer, stricter laws.

Aslito from the South side of the field 1944

Once the U.S. forces arrived, then both the Japanese and the islanders searched for safety in the many hundreds of caves that dot the island.  And depending on whether the US thought there were Japanese soldiers or civilians inside these caves, that dictated whether or not they would survive.

We've heard these stories over and over - and the details are all verifiable with historical records.

The camp in Chalan Kanoa with Chomorro natives

And then we ask if they or any of their family had ever heard anything about a female pilot being incarcerated or on the island.  As mentioned in a previous post, the Saipanese are extremely careful about saying what they saw or did not see - about they heard or did not hear.  In all the interviews, we did not find one person who volunteered information that wasn't asked.  They were extremely careful to say "I did not see this personally, but my mother said that she did."  Or "I was sitting there with my brother, so he can confirm these details, but I saw a white woman sitting in the back of a truck with her hands tied.  And she was tall and thin and wore khaki clothes.  And the truck was parked for 30 minutes, so it was not something I could forget at 12 years old, because I had never seen a white person before, let alone a woman with her hands tied behind her back and a black bandana across her forehead. It's not something you could ever forget."

Chalan Kanoa village in 1944 - US Territory ever since

So far we have 15 of these accounts on camera and are scheduled to film two more very soon. Each has its own detail and carries its own weight.  We will let the audience make up their mind whether all these individuals have somehow been coerced into telling their story.

Bilimon Amaron from Mike Harris' footage in 1983

We've also located some of the original footage shot by Mike Harris back in 1983.  So when someone says "My mother said this" we will be able to show that woman actually saying what they remember her saying.  And in the case of Bilimon Amaron, who saw Earhart on a Japanese ship while in custody, and the Electra sitting on the back of the ship in 1937, we have his caucasian business partner for 40 years, who says emphatically "I knew Bilimon extremely well.  And if he said that he saw something, I can swear that he would never make something like that up.  He was an honorable man, and I worked with him for 40 years as a business partner."  I mention that his business partner was caucasian, merely as a touchstone to earlier posts, where we talk about the inability of so called researchers to understand that an islander might actually be accurate when recounting the story of seeing Earhart on a ship, where all the soldiers spoke of her as "Ameera."  It's not about the ethnicity or memory of the witness; it's about the ability of the interviewer to actually hear the answer to their question.

Captain Cooper in action - photo Robert Rustin

Breakfast nook with Jerry Kramer & Jerry Facey -
thanks for your support! (with Mike and Paul)

Finally, we had a tip that there might be some parts of an airplane buried in an industrial parking lot not far from the airport.  And like all tips that we can follow up on, we did.  In this case, we were far from the field, far from any logical place a piece of an Electra (an unusually high aluminum alloy) might be.  But we followed the tip and dug in that particular place.  So far - nothing.  But that was yesterday, and today we are digging near the airfield itself, near an area where eyewitnesses claim to have seen the Electra burned.

Some Japanese ruins from the original airfield - Google Earth

Stay tuned....

Amelia's Ring, a prison tale and a ghost story...

Digging continues on Saipan.

Captain Paul Cooper has been diligently pursing all leads, sometimes with a magnatometer, sometimes with a GPR, and sometimes with intuition. (Helped by a shovel and some good luck).

Talking to Connie about the ring - photo by Robert Rustin

Connie Kaufer, a relative of the woman who Amelia gave a ring to, has been helping in the effort.  She met with Robert Hunter, curator of the CNMI museum on Saipan (an excellent museum if you're even in the area), and Connie described the ring so that he could generate some sketches.

Meanwhile, Paul has been on site with the help and assistance of the photographer Robert Rustin, looking in the ruins of the family home to see if it can be located.  It was lost during a typhoon, went under the floorboards... and perhaps is still there.

Looking for the ring - photo by Robert Rustin

One of the friends of this blog, Woody Peard, contacted us about the ring.  He supplied us with a photograph that was sent to him by Ann Pellegreno.  Ann is the aviatrix who recreated Amelia's flight in 1967, flying in an Electra.  While she was in Lae, New Guinea, she met the famed photographer James Francis, who has done a number of books about the history of the island.

At some point she was given this photograph - I'm not sure if it was taken by Francis, but if memory serves me correctly (and I think the story of the photograph can be found in "Last Flight" - Amelia's book about her last flight) she met with a local mission on the island, and a number of people came to meet the famed Aviatrix after she had dinner with them.  I've been looking at photos of Amelia and her last flight for 30 years, and I have seen another foto of this same meeting - not sure if it was the same photographer, or if it was with someone else's camera - and I have to dig through the files to find out where it currently is being held.

Lae with AE and Fred - photo courtesy Ann Pellegreno & Woody Peard

But the story is that the woman on the far left of the photograph is holding a ring in her hand, and it's been reported that that was the ring that was given to Amelia before she left on her last flight.

Holding what looks like a ring - Photo courtesy Ann Pellegreno & Woody Peard

And may, perhaps, be the same ring that Amelia gave to Mathilde Arriola (interviewed by Fred Goerner and Father Arnold in 1960 for "Searching for AE") when Amelia was incarcerated on Saipan.  Forensic technology can help us get a better view of the bauble in the woman's hand, as well as help us see if there are any written accounts of this woman giving her that same ring.  But we're on a path and we are pursuing it.

Sam being interviewed by Alexie of the Marianas Variety & Saipan Tribune
photo Robert Rustin

We also got a request from Sam McPhetres, local historian and co founder of the Northern Marianas College.  Sam has been instrumental in our research, helping us with searching the archives for eye witness accounts, and many other leads.

Scott Russell from the NMI Humanities Council - photo Robert Rustin

Sam had one request; could we help him drain the large water tank located in the middle of the jail in Garapan?  This cistern contains water that hasn't been disturbed since 1944, when the jail was taken by US forces.  Sam suspected there was a detention room under that cistern, a "hot box" for prisoners who were given extreme punishment.  With all the permits involved with getting our first shovel into the ground, we thought it was unlikely we'd be able to fulfill that request.  However, Captain Cooper insisted that he could and would do so, and here's some photos of that historic event.

Draining the cistern at the jail - photo Robert Rustin

 Finally, we had a wonderful interview with Tan Escolastica, who has been a historian of sorts, one of the frequently interviewed people on Saipan for her memory of people and events.  We spoke to her first when we arrived on the island, and then a few weeks later when she helped us find an old hidden cemetery, and finally, another interview where she wanted to recount a profound vision she had the night before.  She was in her home and saw a figure appear in the hallway.  She described the figure as tall, thin, wearing khaki and when she turned towards Tan Escolastica, she clearly saw that it was Amelia.

Tan Escolastica telling her story. Photo Chris Neltner

Science will tell us that because of the stirring up of events, the search for her plane, that this "vision" of Amelia's ghost was just an imaginary event.  That may very well be the case.  However, as we've outlined in previous posts, we've left no stone unturned in our search. And that includes interviews with "dowsers" who were able to pinpoint ley lines on Saipan that Paul Cooper also found independently, and in my case, it involved a psychic who I happened to meet while working on the feature film "Salt."  I was having lunch with an old friend, and this old friend had brought her friend Pattie Canova to our brunch.  At some point, Pattie offered to do a "reading."

Pattie Canova - www.pattiecanova.com

I told her that was very kind, I didn't need to do a reading, as I've done my own research into the world of ESP, and I was very comfortable with the results I'd gotten - no need to do one.  She insisted, and I said "Ok."  She had me flip over some playing cards and said "You're doing a project about a female pilot.  Is it Amelia Earhart?"  I look at my friend in chagrin, assuming she must have said something.  I didn't know that Pattie is renowned in NYC, and does this kind of thing for a living.  I've become friends with her and believe beyond a shadow of doubt, she knew nothing about the famed flier.

Amelia and her Electra

So I set aside my skepticism for an hour - and instead of trying to get her to prove she was accurate, I dove into an interview with someone, or something that knew more about Amelia Earhart than anyone I've spoken to, past or present.  And I know a lot about her - from family secrets, to other secrets that have never been published, but were part of my research for the film "Amelia."

So - when we say that it could have been Amelia's ghost visiting Escolastica - we mean literally that whatever energy that is out there in the Universe that contains the engrams of memories that belong to the Aviatrix, it may very well have made a visit to this gentle older Chomorro, who is very religious, who has never claimed to have seen Amelia on Saipan, despite knowing many folks who have, and who isn't making this claim to satisfy any modicum of fame, fortune.. or to appear on this blog.

So.  Take it for what you will.  A dear elderly lady, who has been instrumental in helping the historians of the island, gave us a call and wanted to tell us about her encounter with Amelia's ghost.  We will include a transcript of it when we get around to completing our book, film and exhibit; Earhart on Saipan.

Thanks for tuning in....

Saipan Redux

Still pulling all of our sources together, as well as resources...

Mike Harris & Capt Cooper on site 1

Here's a shot of the airfield and one of our sites close to where US Marines said they saw the Electra burned.  We've done some test digs as well as examine the best method to find aluminum in a field full of ferrous material.  Note the bunker behind Mike, it's one of the original ones that have been there since prior to the War and mark the old airfield.

Test hole dug with help of HPO

Typical pieces found in the grass

There's bedrock in some places, about six feet down.  However, between the surface and the bedrock we've found a number of pieces of metal.

Escolastica's son

Escolastica's son helped us track down an old cemetery. (apologies for not having your name in front of me! Thanks for coming to our talk as well) This cemetery has been moved for the most part, and most of the bodies were re-interred at the new cemetery.  However, Robert Wallack, one of our eyewitnesses, who found Earhart's briefcase in a safe in Saipan (confirmed by a number of Marines we've spoken to), told us about a cemetery that had a wrought iron fence around it.

Took us awhile, but we were able to locate it.  There are still some tombs that haven't been moved, perhaps the family members didn't get a chance to do so.  But their resting area is in a beautiful patch of bamboo.  This is the cemetery where Robert Wallack was told by a local woman that "An american woman flyer and another American man were buried."  Wallack told me about it in his interview, and he also pointed out that "It was different than the one that a local native had told Tom Devine about."  He found it odd that two islanders would point to two different cemeteries.

This could be because two other flyers were executed just prior to the War's start - they were captured in early 44 and held in the Garapan prison.  It could be because a person heard the story from someone else and got the wrong cemetery.  It could be that the bodies of Earhart and Noonan were recovered as reported in "The Stars and Stripes" in 1944. We know of at least three different cemeteries where she and Fred Noonan might have been buried.  But here's the one I told Robert Wallack I would find for him:

Old Garapan cemetery

Some of the crosses were bare, but others had names on them:

Old cemetery

Rich went off to Tokyo to scour the military archives.  Along with an interpreter, he was shown records from every Japanese prison from 1937 to 1945.  Both he and the librarian were surprised to learn that the records from Saipan had never arrived.  The librarian thought that might be perhaps they were never returned by the US after the war.  Of course, we've learned from our search of the US National archives that those records never made it to Washington either.  So despite a wealth of detailed prison information - somehow the records on Saipan seem to have disappeared into thin air.  Or have they?

In the heart of Tokyo, the Japanese Imperial Palace looms large.

The Japanese Imperial Palace looms in the background

Meanwhile, there are flights that leave from Tokyo to Saipan every day filled with tourists from Korea, Japan, China and Vladivostok in Russia.  After all, it's US soil - and who wouldn't want a little vacation time on US soil? Great shopping, great beaches, wonderful friendly natives, and a wealth of secrets.

Delta flights to Saipan from Tokyo

Meanwhile, one more sunset from the beach in front of the Hyatt hotel in Garapan.  Calling to us to continue our search, as the secrets of Saipan have yet to be revealed.  Stay tuned....

The shores of Garapan