CHAPTER FIFTEEN: Interview with Amelia Earhart
“So AE. Good news; you
spend most of your life in a plane.
Bad news, we spend the
rest of the time looking for you.”
After this initial interview, Jennifer and I
had lunch. When we came back, I offered
that I was just going to “jump in” with facts and questions to and about
Amelia.
To refresh; Amelia was on an around the globe
flight which began in Florida, and was supposed to go from New Guinea to a tiny
island named Howland so she could refuel.
She didn’t make it to Howland.
As you’ll read elsewhere in this book, she
went west to the nearest runway she could think of – which would have been
Gardner island, but because she was 200 miles off course, she found Mili Atoll
instead. She landed the Electra on
Endriken island, bringing the plane down on the coral that surrounds the tiny
island, which at low tide is “long enough to land a 747” according to someone
who has filmed there.
She was then picked up by the Japanese who ran
the islands. Amelia, Fred Noonan and the
Electra were put aboard a Japanese ship and taken to Saipan. Fred was beaten
and executed for supposedly being a spy, and Amelia died from dysentery. The US knew she was there, but couldn’t
reveal it knew because it would reveal they had broken the Japanese Naval codes.
Her briefcase was found by a US Marine, her
plane discovered on Aslito airfield on Saipan by US Marines. I’ve filmed interviews with them – they not
only saw her plane, but saw it fly again, and then some weeks later, watched as
it was destroyed by US forces. Her body was dug up by two GI’s, and her plane
was buried in the airfield. I’ve spent
30 years tracking these details down, getting eyewitness interviews, and
everything I’m saying is backed up by solid evidence. That doesn’t seem to matter; likely you’re
hearing this information here for the first time.
But because our time is limited, I jumped into
the questions I already knew the answers to.
RM: Let’s talk about her landing in Mili.
Jennifer: There’s smoke in the cockpit.
Is someone shooting at her?
She’s being shot at.
I’ve heard that. One of the eyewitnesses Mike Harris filmed said that
he was aboard a ship with a Japanese captain, the Akagi, who said that in 1937
he sent a plane up to shoot down her plane. (And noted in the Erik Medhus interview
that a plane was nearby) But let’s back up at little bit. She left Lae, New
Guinea, July 3rd…[1]
I got an image of something being cut on her
plane.
She took a tailing wire off. Was that it?
It felt like a line, like a gas line.
She had a switch in her cockpit that allowed switching tanks. But was
she off course? Radioman Harry Manning (who was on the original flight plan)
said she was 200 miles off during their test flight from her “drifting” – and
then Fred was 200 miles off when they got to Senegal, perhaps due to her
“drifting.” If she was 200 miles away from where she was supposed to be over
Howland, it’s physically possible for the Electra to fly to Mili Atoll. So the
question I have for her is, “Were you 200 miles off course?”
I’m getting that she was.[2]
Endriken Island, Mili atoll where pieces of
the Electra were found. Photo by Dick Spink
When Erik and Dr. Elisa Medhus and the medium did their interview with
you, which I supplied a number of questions for - during the interview, Amelia
reportedly said you would be open to talking to “Whoever wrote these
questions.” Is that me?
Yes.
So the reason I’m asking is because I’m trying to get to the truth of
what happened.
You bring a lot of people with you.
I’m familiar with Amelia’s journey and path, I’d like to jump around
and ask some specific questions. Did she have a girlfriend who was a painter in
her open marriage with George?
She’s some years her junior. The image shown
to me (of the girlfriend) is blonde, like unruly blonde. She had freckles.
Is Amelia with her now?
Yes. They’re all laughing.
Amelia, is it okay to ask you to talk to us directly today?
“It is lovely.”
I heard some love letters exist between you and your girlfriend.
I was shown a wooden box in a summer house. In a museum. It’s in a private collection.
Letters between the painter (this girl) and Amelia. Feels like it’s a
generational thing – like Amelia’s sister has the letters.... I’m getting a
male.
George Putnam donated her poetry to Purdue University. Amelia wrote
some wonderful poetry, George submitted one of her love poems to Purdue. I had
the feeling that it wasn’t written to George, as he’d torn off the dedication
portion. “I lay in the grass with you.” I had the feeling it was written to her
lover, this woman.
Right. She is her love, it’s interesting.
She’s saying he was miserable.
Who?
George. Or Fred. She said they tried to
control her. Did she smoke then?
It’s possible. Fred had an Irish accent and blue yes. George was...
Did he fund her?
Yes.
She had compassion (for him). There is a guy
here, he’s not looking up.
Who’s that?
It’s her father. She’s showing me he was a heavy drinker.
Yes, he was incarcerated, put in a sanatorium for his drinking.
Did he have schizophrenia? He heard voices.
(Note: This is not common knowledge about
Amelia’s family. In various websites, it
says that her father “voluntarily” swore off drinking by entering a hospital
for alcohol. As we’ve heard from the
other three mediums, he was “incarcerated” for alcohol, actually put away. Perhaps there’s more to this story that
hasn’t been revealed – abuse perhaps - but this is the third confirmation from
a medium that Amelia’s father was jailed and not a voluntary patient in a
sanatorium.)
Maybe that’s why he was in a sanatorium. I read in one of George’s
later books that Amelia had psychic abilities.
She is, she was (just) showing me how she was
able to see things outside of her plane when she was in her plane. She was
psychic... interesting, who’s the other female who was psychic who took on
the...? She just showed me an image of Joan of Arc.
Funny. Same haircut. Joan had visions of the future, and of course
they burned her at the stake for it. Amelia was a bit like her. I’m going to ask some random questions. Where
there two cameras in her plane?
She showed me taking one of them out. (Amelia
had her own camera she used during the trip to take snapshots.)
They were spy cameras. Did you get a chance to use them?
She used them. To document things. In Africa.
(She used her handheld Brownie type camera to take photos as well.)
Okay.
She’s showing me taking pictures, like the
first selfie, even pictures with her and a girl. (Those pictures are in the
library at Purdue University. They’re snapshots from her camera she left in New
Guinea.)
AE and Fred during the Last Flight
(Courtesy Purdue University)
Someone quoted you saying “imagine me being a spy” – was there some
kind of military reason to this flight?
She shows me there’s someone who was in the military who was a pilot.
Dark haired guy, tall. He was wearing one of those jump suits.
You were friends with FDR…
She just rolled her eyes.
(Note: That last time FDR was mentioned she made
the same kind of gesture looking at George. However, she said the opposite
during the interview with Erik’s medium about her being a spy.)
Did FDR ask you to help him to spy on the Japanese on any level?
He did.[3]
You had asked for permission to fly through Japanese airspace…
She’s showing me these islands... but I’m
getting what I thought was Hawaii but she’s saying “closer to Asia” and on the
farthest, closest to Japan… (an island closer to Japan, Jennifer later says it
was Saipan when I show her a map of the Pacific on my cell phone).
Were you going to fly over Japanese territory? Saipan was considered
part of Japan by the Japanese, the way we considered Hawaii part of the U.S.
No. She says
“I was afraid.” If feels like a last
minute change.
They changed the flight plane to depart from Florida instead of
Oakland. I understand that answer. (After the crash in Hawaii, the flight plan
was changed)
Glad you
do!
Let’s go to New Guinea, was Fred drinking heavily before you left?
Something happened where she was jilted
(rejected?).
In New Guinea?
She loved someone – she left someone. (There
was a radio operator in New Guinea that she was friends with, and years later
he wrote that she’d asked him to replace Fred for the last leg of the flight.)
We’re going to move forward. I’m hoping this isn’t stressful.
Not stressful. They’re entertained by this
line of questions.
The Japanese came and arrested you in Mili, did they make you strip?
She’s laughing.
When they arrested you and Fred, when they took the Electra to a
Japanese ship, was that stressful or did you feel like you were being rescued?
It was not stressful.
This is the ship Amelia, Fred and the Electra were seen aboard.
(Smithsonian)
Aboard the Japanese ship, you were seen by a doctor…
(Aside to me:) Was she pregnant?
I don’t think so…
She’s showing me getting cramps.
She mentions that in her book – from the smell of gasoline – a few
have suggested that she was… was she pregnant?[4]
She was
pregnant.
Oy. (Note: I leave this question behind, to not get caught up in this
moment) So a native of Jaluit, a fellow named Bilimon Amaron said he tended to
your wounds aboard the ship.. and you tried to speak to Bilimon – but he
overheard the soldiers calling you “Ameera.”
She’s smiling. She’s saying they only knew two words in English.
“Ameera” and “Ea-haht.” She’s showing me a map or a blueprint or a map, where
they were going to fly. They helped her significantly, she says.
Bilimon
Amaron interviewed in 1980. I interviewed his business partner who said “His word
was gospel. If he said he saw AE, he did.” Footage: Mike Harris
They took you to Saipan?
Saipan! Yes, that’s what (the island near Japan) I was seeing earlier.
Reports say they took you ashore to the city of Garapan, they brought
you to the hospital where a number of people saw you and treated your wounds.
There was a lot of people (who saw me).
You gave some jewelry to an island woman?
A cross.
It could be my interpretation… feels like pearls… or...
Did you pick it on the trip?
Feels like something that was given to her when she was young.[5]
A number of people took care of your clothing, you were taken to the
military headquarters, at what point did you realize you weren’t being rescued?
She says she knew it from the beginning, just
knew it from her “Spidey” sense. They
kept her separate from Fred...
At what point was Fred executed?
They were in cells… but they were telling people she was a spy...
She says she
was a spy but that it was “to be
able to fly.” That was the price she
paid to fly. She’s showing me bullet holes in the tip… of the plane.
(Note: As noted earlier, there reports (in
Mike Harris’ footage) from a man who said the captain of a Japanese aircraft
carrier told him he’d sent a plane to shoot down the Electra. Also mentioned in
the previous medium’s reading – and not public knowledge by any stretch of the
imagination.)
The Electra had an accident in Hawaii a year earlier. (Note: I’m
jumping around here)
She’s showing me the brake assembly broke.
Yes, that’s correct.
(Note: This is spot on. The Electra did a
ground loop in Hawaii on the first leg of her flight, and the right landing
gear broke. That’s when they changed the flight plan. However, she may have
meant when she landed in Mili. According to NTSB investigator Jim Hayton, (who
owns an exact replica of part of the Electra’s wheel) the Electra parts found
on Mili Atoll by Dick Spink indicates the “brake assembly broke upon
landing.” Either way, it’s a pretty
specific detail for someone who knows nothing about aviation or Amelia.)
Jim Hayton, NTSB expert, demonstrating where
the piece found by Dick Spink on Mili fits on the Electra’s wheel.
(Jennifer, aside to me:) This is exciting, I
feel like a kid.
The crash in Hawaii happened in 1936… The U.S. Navy fixed the plane at
the Lockheed factory in Burbank…
It’s like they switched something out...
I’ve heard that – perhaps an engine switch. I heard the Navy installed
two “aerial reconnaissance cameras” on the plane... I interviewed the son of
the Navy mechanic who installed them.
She’s showing me taking them (the cameras)
down – there was one up in the corner, but the other was taken down. She didn’t
want to be tracked. Was there something that could have tracked her?
There is a theory they wanted her to be missing so they could find
her. Is that accurate? Part of her mission was to be lost?
No. That’s what she’s saying. Or whoever it is
with me.
I did read your book carefully… (AE’s “Last flight”) I noticed that
you never learned Morse code…
She knew Morse code, she says.
Hang on Amelia, if you were pregnant - who was the father of the baby?
Fred.[6]
No wonder you didn’t want to come back.
She keeps showing me a white tank top with
white underwear.
I heard Gene Vidal bought her men’s underwear.
It is
men’s underwear.
Okay, wow, pardon the irreverence.
She’s showing me page 209… (of the book I’m
holding in my hand).
Okay, this is Vincent Loomis’ book – (“Amelia Earhart – the Final
Story”)
She’s excited about that book for some reason.
And she loves that other book for some reason – (points to George Putnam’s book
“Soaring Wings” published after her disappearance).
This is George’s book called “Soaring Wings.” I’m looking at page 209
in George’s book. Here’s the first sentence, “It’s significant she was known as
the girl in brown “who walks alone” In a sense I think she was always destined
to be walking alone...”
I feel like she wrote that; she was voicing it at the same time as you
were talking - she was saying those exact words.
Page 209?
Where she was before she got pregnant.
If you were pregnant… did conception occur before you left? Where’d the conception take place?
During the trip.
Oh my. She could be teasing us too.
Is she making this part up?
I don’t think they can lie from the other side.
I think they generally don’t… but you never know. So, you’re saying
you did know Morse code. Are you saying you did?
It was our excuse… (to be lost)
You didn’t reply to the Itasca, you were pretending not to know Morse
code?
That’s (in) your stuff. (My research she means. It is,
but I didn’t realize that was part of any “plan”).
So the last missive heard from you was “We’re low on fuel” –
She cut the cord. She’s saying and she said the words “We’re
low on fuel” at the same time she cut the cord – … (to the gas tank)
There’s a CBS correspondent named Fred Goerner, and he followed the
story as I have, in the 1960’s he went into the records at the Nimitz Museum in
Texas and found a last recorded message from the Itasca to be “land in sight.” Is that accurate?[7]
Yes.
Fred
Goerner at KCBS in SF. He interviewed an eyewitness, Josephine Blanco Akiyama who
I interviewed 40 years later, who told me the same story she told Goerner. She
saw Amelia and Fred escorted onto Saipan by Japanese soldiers in July of 1937.
(Photo: KCBS)
There was a report of a young girl in Florida who listened to you
three days after you disappeared, on her ham radio…
She showed me an M…[8]
This young girl recorded what you said when the plane came down. It’s
on the Tighar website: “There’s water coming up,” and you said “tell George to get the suitcase from the
closet.” What did that mean?
She’s looking at her girlfriend… I’m asking
her... (as) I haven’t asked that yet.
She’s laughing – it had to do with her belongings and with her relationship
with her girlfriend, but also stuff that felt like it was... give me a second…
-- It was her letters… to her
girlfriend.
Very good, thank you.
(Aside) Fascinating, I had no idea.
As stylish and beautiful as you are, there’s an element of freedom and
liberation that can help people who are suffering because they can’t tell
others about their preference in sexuality. That’s why I bring it up.
It’s the greatest love story. She just showed me it was “the devil’s triangle” - not what she got
lost in, but emotionally.
But you did choose this life to be liberated by the air, to be a
pilot, to be someone who represents femininity on a profound level, the power
of women to do anything, at the same time to be someone who could be plucked
from the air and put in prison.. You had the courage not only to fly, but to be
incarcerated as well.
It’s crazy.
The Garapan prison where she was held.
Let’s talk about the incarceration. What was it like?
Feels like she left (spiritually) when she was
incarcerated…
There are reports she got out on the island to meet other people. What
happened to Fred?
She’s telling me they thought Fred was the actual spy. That he utilized
her work.
And I know Fred’s not dead now, he still exists...
He’s the first one that showed up... (in our
session).
Can I ask Fred a question? Fred, can we ask you, how did you die?
Showed me Fred taking a drink. I feel like he was beaten.
Did you lose your head?
(Aside) (They have) such a great sense of
humor; (they said) “He lost that a long
time ago.” It takes time for them to
show me something bad. – (a pause) There
was a blade.
Was there a soldier... did he get in a fight – or was it a sentence..?
It was a sentence. He didn’t have things to tell them.
Was it at the prison, kneeling down by a tree?
I felt a field.
Wide shot of the Garapan prison and field with
tree.
More than one soldier? How many people where there?
What I’m being shown is that there was a crash
where he was foundering going down a hill... (like he was escaping and they
were running after him) and that there was.. they came and got him and took him
away.. and they beat him.
Did he try to run away?
He was trying to get to her, trying to talk to
her (Amelia.)
What year did that happen?
After you got to Saipan, later on?
When he takes me through it the colors
change...
It would make sense the Japanese would assume he was the spy as he had
the military background…
He showed me (those) ties when you said that.
I think he died before her – two accounts say that...
He was bound and on his knees…
Shooting someone was more painful, beheading is quick the honorable
way to go. Was he buried?
I felt like he was in different places.
Cremation?
Could be. She just showed me a cemetery… he was cremated; she was in a
cemetery.
Okay, back to AE.
I feel like he was beaten to death… but there is blood on a blade.
Sword or a bayonet… that would have been logical. AE was moved from this four cell block to
another cell block that was across from the original one.
Was there a church nearby?
Not far away. Amelia, I’m going to run through different accounts of
what happened to you.
I think she starved.
I’ve heard that – dysentery?
She said something... with the number 8.. 8
weeks, 8 months, 8 years?[9]
She was in this cell then moved to this smaller cell…
She just showed me that it felt like
forever...
I get reports that she got out to visit people… Saipanese got along
with the Japanese.
Did they have those pointy hats?
(Note: Historical drawing Chamorro natives
living in Guam in the 19th century include fisherman wearing pointy hats.)
From a traditional
Chamorro ceremony. (Photo: Guampedia.com)
Could be…. Was it as noisy in that cell as it was for me in your
cell?
“It was miserable.” She went like this – (hand
gestures) “tiny space” in the grand scheme of things. She wrote (a diary) that
she just showed me...
(Note: I’ve stood in the cell where she was
supposedly held. It’s small, but the sounds of chickens, cows, birds are
incessant from the nearby farms. A small
little hellacious place.)
Where’d the writings go?
Into the fire.
Did she write on the wall?
Yes. On the back, right… She drew on the bottom part. Her initials and
her girlfriend’s initials…
(Note: In Tom Devine’s book, he claims that
when he examined her cell, the letters AE were written in large letters on the
wall of the cell as well as “some other scrawlings.” There were about ten cells in this block, I
was able to identify hers by the tree that is growing inside of it (pictured in
Goerner’s book as only a sapling.) However, someone has painted, plastered only
one cell on the block; hers. The rest are as they were when the island was
liberated in 1944.)
A GI told me he found something like that... did she do that?
Yeah.
There was metal food plate on the cell door – I’ve seen a photograph
of it in Tom Devine’s book - carved into the copper – the name A Earhart or
maybe it was initials, I forget.
“It was spelled out” she says. It looked like the name was rubbed off. (A woman contacted Devine with a photo of a
metal plate that had AE’s name written in script. She claimed she got it from a
Saipanese villager in the 1960’s. The
piece had yet to be forensically examined.)
This is the writing on the plate a woman received on Saipan in the
1960’s. Photo: Deanna Mick
I just interviewed a guy in Saipan last spring, he’s 82…
She’s makes a face of pinching his cheeks. He
saw something...
Yes, he saw you on the back of a truck, you with a bandana, dressed as
a man, on this truck… I asked if this was you and he said “It was the first
time I ever saw a Caucasian woman, she was dressed like a man, it’s not
something you’d ever forget.” He was 12 at the time.
Right.
Another man came forward and said the same thing... was that truck
taking you off to your execution? When was that?
March. (That is the same date that the 82 year
old eyewitness gave me, in 1944, just prior to the US landing).
Is that when you were you executed?
No. She dies from being sick, she’s saying.
They didn’t kill her that day.
They tried.
What’s unusual about this story, is that it was in 1944. So this would
determine she was alive until May of 44. I’ve heard two versions of how she
died; one said they saw her shot, another said they heard she was beheaded.
She says she was not beheaded.
So not shot, not beheaded?
She wasn’t cremated, she says she died from a wounded heart, she was
sick.
Where was she buried? If she wasn’t cremated, what’d they do with her
body?
Is there a cemetery? She’s showing me something (draws a drawing) – she
says she’s buried under that. (I recognize the drawing).
Why would they bury you?
There was something that she did that
influenced that.
She died from illness – she’s buried near this spot, under it?
Up to the right.
I went to the old cemetery that was moved... is it there?
No. (Points to the drawing.) There.
There’s two GIs Hanson and Burke, these two soldiers were sent to dig
up bodies and they went out to a cemetery, and they asked “Why are we out
here?” The CO said “Did you ever hear of AE?” Did those guys dig your body up?
A part of it, yeah.
Ok, let’s hold off on your body for a sec. What about your briefcase?
Did Robert Wallack pick it up?
Yes.
US Marine Julius Nabers decoded a message saying they’d found your
plane. Nabers guarded the plane… eventually
it was burned and buried. My question is – does that sound accurate?
It is accurate.
US Marine Nabers remembered “as if it were
yesterday” when he decoded the message “we have found Earhart’s Electra on
Aslito airfield.” He guarded the plane for 24 hours, later saw her briefcase,
and watched as US forces destroyed her plane.
Is the plane still there?
She’s showing me part of the airfield. (Jennifer draws a map of the
airfield, draws terrain which I’ve been to and seen with my own eyes; she’s
never been there nor seen a photograph of that airfield. I recognize precisely
what she’s drawn.)
Andrew and Douglas Bryce of Colorado. Andrew spoke to a stevedore on
Majuro during WWII who claimed he moved the Electra from Mili via a barge to
the Japanese ship; Kyoshu. Douglas saw it in a hangar on Aslito airfield on
Saipan. Soldiers told him “Did you hear we found Earhart’s Electra?” and he and
other GI’s went to the field to see it, corroborating other eyewitness accounts.
Are we going to have success with that? Finding the plane?
Maybe. She wants you to find it. I told you. She visits you in your
sleep. Two years ago, she visited you in your sleep.
What did we talk about?
She sat down and talked with you about blueprint plans. You guys were
at a camp fire. It’s interesting.
Question for you – 2 things – George, are you still around?
He is.
George, during WWII, you had Amelia declared dead while she was still
alive - did you find that amusing when you hooked up in the afterlife?
She just pushed him (jokingly) – she (said
she) was so angry… she showed me pushing him.
She’s showing me she would have gone back to him… (if she’d made it back
alive.)
With Fred’s kid! Well… that happens… but George, at some point you
were on Tinian and I discovered you went for 2 weeks leave on Saipan. Did you
hear she’d been there, where you looking into the rumors?
He did look into it. He wanted to know that she wasn’t suffering. I
have to tell you when I first saw what he was showing me, he just wanted to
make sure she was dead, when he got there he was overwhelmed.
Did anyone tell him the truth?
No. A
woman on the island did – associated with the Catholic Church. They didn’t tell
him while he was there, it was afterwards… Three years after… three years
later.
I went to visit George’s tomb here in Los Angeles.
Was it big and white? – (I’m seeing) the
building is white…
Yes. A white mausoleum. Our lady of the Pines, Crenshaw area (in Los
Angeles).
(Our
Lady of the Pines where George Putnam’s ashes are interred.)
White… yeah. He didn’t pick that...
Someone else did?
His family did.
(Note: Not many people know where Putnam is
buried. I was able to find it here in Los Angeles. Also, no other researcher
I’ve met is aware that Putnam went to Saipan for two weeks while he was
stationed in Tinian. I found it by accessing his military records and seeing
that he’d put in for two weeks leave on the neighboring island that is visible
from Saipan. Tinian was the famous
airfield built after Saipan was capture, and was where the atomic bombers flew
from.)
Why we’re on Saipan, I was there with a dowser – I had a dream after I
got back; a campfire dream. Someone said to me “Paul is the key” and I thought
“What?” Maybe it was that campfire dream you mentioned.
“The goose.” They call him “the goose.”
He’s a tall Texan with a white hat. He found a spot by a tree behind
the prison – I tried it as well, as an experiment, and the dowser arms crossed
on the exact same spot. Was this the spot where Fred was executed?
No, but I feel her touching that tree. Did you
look to see if anything was inscribed on the tree?
She carved something on the tree?
She did not.
Why did the dowser work?
That’s where she prayed.
The tree she’s talking about behind the cells.
The earth has a memory?
Yeah, that’s where she got her strength.
You sure you didn’t get beheaded and you just don’t want to tell me?
She smiles, says “I did not get beheaded dammit!” I can’t keep asking,
as she tells me… she showed me Joan of Arc, (as in) “I would have loved to have
gone out with a beheading!” She shows me being in a cell sick, and these nuns
taking care of her.
So what year did you die?
She says 1944.
She was there a long time.
(Aside) How come nobody knows this? Or is it
out? I don’t know anything about this, honestly.
Some people don’t believe what islanders are saying… my feeling is you
get 5 eyewitnesses to say the same thing, you should pay attention. There are
over 200 who claim they saw her there.
She says they’re all good people... all (the
islanders) are good people.
What do you remember about your entry into the afterlife? Were you greeted
by anybody?
Greeted by Fred.
That’s nice.
“Then I was mad.” (About his) navigating.
Fred Noonan and Amelia.(Smithsonian)
Where’s your briefcase now?
Feels like NY.
Safety place, military place? FBI? Archives?
It’s in a private collection – somebody… owns
it.
A military guy who found it on Saipan kept it?
Something to do with George. George’s son? Who is that?
David.
You spoke to him four years ago?
Yes. I did. While I was working on the film “Amelia” with Hilary
Swank.
Yeah.
(Note: I’ve never told anyone that I spoke to David Putnam before he
died. It was while I was working on “Amelia” and I called him directly and told
him what I knew about Amelia. He didn’t
doubt it, said he’d heard “things like this” before, and thanked me for telling
him what I’d discovered.)
They had a subplot in the film with AE having an affair with Gene
Vidal, Gore Vidal’s father, and Gore was the source of that story… I was asked
to prove or disprove it – and found it was impossible they had an affair –
actually, looking at his life story and photos, I think Gene himself might have
been gay.
Yep. (Nods. An Aside) That’s so funny.
I always thought that might be the case, no judgment involved.
I keep asking if it was a military man who has
her briefcase, and she says “No, it’s in
a private collection.”
Why? What are they keeping it for?
It feels very it has a connection with George
– he’s holding onto it… for somebody… for safety’s sake. I wonder; who is
George’s dad? It feels like it may be from his family (GP Putnam and sons?) has
his briefcase. Has the briefcase.
Her briefcase (lower right) was found by US
Marine Robert Wallack in 1944 on Saipan. His description and that of Julious
Nabers (who also saw it) matches this photo.
How did this person get it?
Were they still married (after the war)?
No, George had Amelia declared dead (even though she was still alive)
and married his secretary in 1940… But are they aware of what’s in it?
They are. (Aside) this is so entertaining, they’re such
a cool rat pack like group. I keep asking if it was a military who has her
briefcase, and she says “No, it’s in a private collection.”
Who’s all there with George and Amelia?
Amelia and her girlfriend, and George. George is entertained by what you’re doing. They
are sitting on an old chest, Amelia’s wearing a white shirt, with riding pants,
not riding boots… Her shirt is tucked in… Her hair is short, unruly.
How does Fred look?
He looks beautiful, serene, calm. He’s showing me right before he was
beaten.
What about George?
(Jennifer: Aside to me, re: George) Was he
gay?
I don’t know. He was quite the dapper fellow. I’m told he had a number
of girlfriends after AE. Perhaps that’s why they had their open marriage
contract. Is he saying he had male lovers?
Yes. Then… somebody else came through… He
showed me the Vanderbilt house, (in North Carolina) He said he had two… two
different lovers.
At first George was a rebel, moved to Alaska, ran a paper, had a full
beard. Then they gave him an office on 5th avenue for Putnam and Sons
– it was from there he hatched this plan for AE’s career.
57th Street.
(Note: How could Jennifer know that Amelia lived at the AWA house at 353 West
57th Street in Manhattan when George hatched the plan for the Atlantic
crossing? I didn’t know it, and when I looked it up, found out this was her
address.)
I think so. That’s when he hatched this plan to get AE into a plane –
but since then he kept her in the front pages of the paper for ten years.
He liked men; it actually was the perfect marriage.
But he had a son with Dorothy… so I assume he was bi-sexual.
Right. It’s
just crazy, one day they’ll look back on sexuality like they look back on
slavery.
(Note: I’m
not trying to out anyone here. George had a son with his first wife, and
married a number of other women. I’m not outing him, or Amelia or Gene Vidal,
or “claiming” they were gay or bi. If you examine their lives carefully, as
I have done, they lived a carefully constructed life. To argue “So and so is gay, or bi, I know
because three mediums talked to her on the Flipside” – not my premise. To argue that we don’t die, that between lives
we’re all equal, and there are no judgments over sexuality – well that’s in the data. Consistently.
Repeatedly.
I’m just asking questions and Jennifer is
answering them to the best of what she’s sensing, feeling, or seeing. She could be hearing them wrong, and I point
out that “maybe they’re kidding.” But as Amelia said in the previous
“interview” with a medium, “What’s the
point of rewriting history?” It only
matters to people who have difficulty here on the planet with their own gender
identity, and if that is important to them, then by all means, embrace it. I’m
offering what these mediums say “Verbatim” so if it’s proven that they’re
inaccurate, or the information is wrong, then great, we can ignore everything
they’ve ever said. But if any of their
information is accurate – and it could only be from someone not on the planet -
then we have to ask “So where did the information come from?” Or “Don’t wait until you’re on the Flipside to
come out of the closet.”)
So let’s go back to her body for a second. I was hoping she was
cremated so I could stop looking for her! If the briefcase is in NY, where are
you?
“On Saipan.”
What? Still buried there? C’mon. No, really? Go to that spot now..
She took me there.
Walk around for a moment.. what does it look like today?
(Jennifer proceeds to draw me a map of Saipan and the location, a
place she’s never been, but where I spent 8 weeks roaming around. I instantly
recognize the spot she’s drawn.)
Jennifer: She’s showing me two different
versions (of the location), she’s showing me what it looked like back then and
what it looks like now…
If I’m standing there (point to map) – the body is where?
Right there.
(Jennifer points to map. I’m startled because
I know this place. Jennifer has never been to Saipan, never seen a picture of
it, yet she just drew an accurate map of
the terrain for me).
Why didn’t they find her when they dug her up during the War?
Soldiers carved initials into the Garapan
prison walls. Took this photo in 2013
They’re showing me her body was in pieces... they only recovered an arm…
she showed me an arm that was placed somewhere else.
But your head, your torso is here (points at the map)?
(Laughs) I asked her one more time, are you sure you weren’t cremated?
She said “No.” I’m waiting for them to flip it; they’re very consistent with
these answers.
What part of your body is here? Bones? Skull?
Skull.
Is there any physical...
Hold on. That hurt actually. Something with dental, there are dental
records? I guess.
I think there’s a guy in Seattle who has her dental records.
She’s smiling as if she’s amused.[10]
Random question. Do you still drink buttermilk? (Buttermilk was
reportedly her favorite drink.)
(Laughs) She does. She shows me how she drinks
it – it’s instantaneous.
Do you want me to try to find your body? Or should we look for your
plane?
Dig up both… consciously
I would say you’re right... dig ‘em both
up.
There’s a long list of people who spent lives looking for you – Tom
Devine… his house was filled with memorabilia, and the day he died, his wife burned
everything. He felt he had to tell the story; it drove him nuts.
Was it his heart? Did he die of a heart attack?
I think so. I interviewed him on his death bed.
Amelia tapped her heart. She’s having a blast up there, around all
these men.
Going back and digging for your bones, is there anyway...
I feel there’s a connection to someone knowing what happened. These
islanders dug up her bones from wherever they buried her, and moved them to a
safer place, but they left a fragment behind. They wanted to preserve her...
memory.
So her body is located here?
(I point to the map)
In front and to the right. Yes.
I should look for your bones and your plane?
She’s saying you’re going to find it… she says “You’re going to find it.” What
are you going to find? I feel like the
plane has been washed... but the bones aspect of it... is something that um…
yeah.
Who burned her papers?
Feel like George burned her letters.
Here’s from her book “Last Flight”: she sends a note to Fred: “Why did
we miss Dakar; what put us north?” I think this passage refers to Amelia’s
navigational error, so she and Fred missed their target in Senegal.
You really do know a lot about her.
Here’s something; “Land in sight.”
Quote from AE: “It’s hard to get old... so hard... and AE said “It’s
hard to be old, I’m afraid I’ll hate it…” she said “I think… that I’ll not live
to be old.” .
He feels like he might have something… July 8th...
I got that as well.
Amelia, can give us a page number?
She said “page 42.”
From “Final story” Vincent Loomis… page 42 is a story about Paul
Mantz… “Paul helped make it a long distance machine. Mantz wrote “I suggest the
stabilizer be painted orange or red to be seen easier when the skies overcast…
Mantz got what he wanted, orange was the color chosen... Mantz contacted
Clarence Beeland to operate master valve on the floor of the cockpit, feeding
fuel from the wings…”
(Note: When Dick Spink found a gas cover on
Mili he brought it back to compare the paint with actual paint from her plane.
It’s painted with the same kind of red/orange paint.)
What was that name?
Clarence Beeland, superintendent for a national airline in Boston.
Something that was military driven from him.
She’s bringing that up from that page.
So a military aspect of the flight.. Amelia, what was the military
goal? To find out what the Japanese were up to? To map the pacific?
It was all of it.
(Jennifer’s client appears outside her office
door. I say my goodbyes and thank Amelia
for the information.)
…..
End of Interview
I drove away from Jennifer’s office in a
daze. How could she possibly know so
much about Amelia if she wasn’t speaking to her directly? And as mentioned, this is the third medium
I’ve spoken to Amelia through – and Jennifer is the only one where I’ve asked
direct questions.
Then something really strange happened.
I was about a mile from Jennifer’s office when
the phone rang. It was an associate of
mine, an expert in his field, a man whose word I trust completely. And he told me he had just spent a number of
hours examining in great detail, incontrovertible evidence that Amelia was
taken captive by the Japanese.
He said the written documents, which he could
not share with me for a number of reasons, corroborated everything I had told
him about Amelia. That the government knew
she had come down in Mili, had intercepted the secret coded message, but did
not decode it for a month.
It showed that Amelia was in Japanese hands. Of course they couldn’t reveal its contents –
just the way the coders working at Bletchley park on the German Enigma machine
could not warn people about imminent attacks they discovered. Because then the Germans would know their code had been broken.
Further, this friend said that he saw evidence
that the US forces had indeed found her briefcase, just as US Marine Robert
Wallack had said, they had found her plane as Marine Earskin Nabors and Army
Veteran Tom Devine, and the Navy and Army brothers from Colorado Springs said –
and they burned and buried it.
He then said “But Rich, they dug up her body, just as you’ve reported, but there was something
interesting in this report. The US
forces didn’t retrieve her whole body,” he said. I asked “What do you mean?”
He said “They
only recovered her arm.”[11]
What are the odds that I would hear the exact
same sentence ten minutes apart? One
from a medium who was speaking directly to someone on the Flipside who claimed
only her arm had been recovered by US forces, and then ten minutes later to
hear the exact same sentence?
It wasn’t until I was editing this chapter
that I found written evidence of what Amelia said. Captain Tracy Griswold was the soldier on Saipan
ordered to dig up her body with two soldiers named Hansen and Burks. Hansen and Burks were interviewed by Fred
Goerner, but it was Griswold who revealed in an interview in 1977 that they
only dug up her arm and ribcage.
From UPI Chicago Tribune in 1977; “After 40
years, search for Amelia still goes on.” “Capt. Tracy Griswold… ordered two
Marines to dig up the grave.” (Don Kothera interviewed (and filmed) the two soldiers
who dug up the graves.) “In taped interviews, the Marines recalled picking up a rib cage and part of an arm.”
Amelia imparted new information to two people
who did not know, could not have known that these soldiers had only found her
arm. And in fact, she’s given me the
precise location of where her skull can be found.
To me it doesn’t matter whether or not anyone believes these details. What’s
important is to realize that by speaking to someone on the Flipside, I was able
to gain new information. That alone is why it’s in this book. I’m
not here to prove or disprove she was gay, or bi, or that they had an open
marriage, or that she was arrested, imprisoned and left to die by the
government who sent her there. Three different mediums spoke of this same
information, and I can vouch that while people may have considered it an open secret
– there’s no written evidence of it anywhere.
Doesn’t mean it’s not true. It just means it doesn’t matter.
I’m not interested in revealing anything about Amelia that she doesn’t
want us to know. Not even
gung ho to trek back to Saipan to dig up her skull. As she said so eloquently
in her interview with Erik Medhus: “I’m
happy that people remember me for what I represented for women.” I’m happy with that as well. I always found
it odd that my life has been peppered with her story as I’ve been “searching”
for her for the past 30 years. As she
pointed out – “There’s no point in
searching for me. I’m still here.”
I’ve seen the vitriolic attacks on people
who’ve spent their lives looking for her.
For these researches to accept any of this information, they’d have to
first make the leap that we don’t die, then the leap that we can access people
on the Flipside, then the leap that it’s possible that everything they’ve ever
known about Amelia and the planet in
general, is wrong.
Which is why I’m not writing the “I know where Amelia is” book. It’s why I don’t care if anyone believes what
she’s saying or not. I’ve done more research on her than anyone I’ve met, I’ve
spoken to more experts than anyone I know, (except perhaps Tom Crouch at the
Smithsonian who is convinced beyond a shadow of doubt that she and her plane
sank in the sea) and all I can say is, if you don’t like it – tough beans. It is what it is.
Of course, these people are not reading this
book. Frankly I just don’t care to argue about it. She either is telling us an accurate story –
which just happens to coincide with the 200 eyewitness interviews, happens to
coincide with my over 30 years of research – and doesn’t coincide with any theory
that’s out there - or she’s not. I leave it up to the reader to decide.
What’s more important? Finding out that Amelia
Earhart died in prison? Or finding
that Amelia Earhart is alive and well on the Flipside? For her to reveal
that the US only dug up her arm, and for me to hear that there’s evidence of
exactly the same detail ten minutes after I heard it from her – well you can’t make this stuff up. It can’t
be “cryptomnesia” or “hypoxia.” At some
point, it’s just data.
This portion of the book is to show that with the right amount of
help, we can access people who are no longer on the planet, but still exist. And still have new information to
impart. Do I know where her plane is? I
have a good idea. Do I know where her body rests? Maybe. If I find myself back
in Saipan, digging, I’ll know she sent me there. If I ever do find something,
you’ll have heard it here first.
But if I haven’t offended anyone yet with this
talk of Amelia and Jesus in the same interview, just hang on.
We’re in for some turbulence.
With Fred Noonan during their last flight.
(Courtesy
Purdue Archives)
[1] Mike Harris,
shot footage in the 1980’s of Marshall Islanders who claim they saw Amelia
after she landed in 1937. Mike and I went to Saipan, filmed some of the same
witnesses, or their children; their stories are consistent. Numerous islanders saw her arrive in Saipan,
treated in the hospital and later when she was in prison. In 1944, US Marines landed, I have filmed
interviews with a number of GI’s who saw her plane, briefcase, and watched US
forces destroy the Electra. These are
not theories but eyewitness reports on film.
[2] There’s a site,
datelinetheory.com that claims she was 400 miles NW of Howland when she thought
she was over it. However, as noted, she reportedly drifted 200 miles NW when
she flew long distances. Either way, her next stop was Mili atoll.
[3] This is
contrary to what was said in the previous interview, where she turned and
looked at George before answering she “wasn’t a spy whatsoever.” I’m not claiming it to be the case; it’s
either true or it isn’t. I’m interested
in getting a consensus of reports from different angles. She may have been a
“reluctant spy.”
[4] From “Last
Flight” by Amelia Earhart. “Gas fumes in plane from fueling made me sick again
this morning after starting. Stomach getting weak I guess…. French and Standard
oil people very careful about wiping oil cans. No ground wire used as in U.S.
In refueling at Natal boys spilled so much gas it was funny.”
[5] AE didn’t wear
jewelry when she flew. (None that I can see in the 5k photos or 30 hours of
stock footage I have.) It seems likely to me that this was something she’d
either carried in her briefcase, or picked up along the way on the trip. In
Fred Goerner’s book a woman mentioned getting “a ring” as a gift from AE, in my
trip to Saipan, I was shown the house where that ring still is, buried under a
house knocked down by a typhoon.
[6] As noted, in
“Last Flight” Amelia writes about feeling nauseous, ascribing it to “gas
fumes.” Others have suggested a possible
pregnancy. I’m not claiming it to be the case, but transcribing this session
verbatim.
[7] Admiral Nimitz
told Goerner he was “on the right path” with regard to his search for AE on
Saipan. He would know, he was in command of the Navy when the plane was found.
According to Goerner, the day after he found this document, he went back to make
a copy of it, and it was “mysteriously gone.’ Cue the Twilight Zone music.
Goerner’s papers are in the Nimitz Museum in Texas.
[8] (Note: From Topeka press, July 3, 1937 “Earlier the Los
Angeles operator, Walter McMenamy and Carl Pierson, interpreted radio signals
as placing the plane adrift near the equator between Gilbert islands and
Howland Island.” Their intercepts became the basis for the RKO film “Flight For
Freedom” with Rosalind Russell.)
[10] “Hunt for Earhart Leads to US Files.”
In an interview two GIs claimed they were ordered to dig up Amelia’s body on
Saipan during the war: “In taped interviews, the Marines recounted recovering a
rib cage and part of an arm.” First I’ve
heard of this (and it confirms what Amelia is saying) “They only dug up my
arm.” UPI Chicago Tribune
1-17-77
[11] This fact was
confirmed in a 1977 interview with Capt. Tracy Griswold, the Marine who ordered
her body dug up. I’d never seen that citation or heard “an arm and ribcage was
recovered” until I was editing this; ibid. op. cit. copyright RICHARD MARTINI 2024
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